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Dawn, issue 11, combined with The Imaginative Collector, issue 1, November 1950
Page 16
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(16) DEAR DAWNERS, This time I'll try deviding the issue into subjects. Subject: Civilization and the Bomb Letter; Ray Nelson Ray questions Bob Pavlat's definition of civilization. That is a good point. If this discussion continues I think we should give our definitions in our letters. Ray thinks Pavlat's civilization is USA 1950. He then says it can be destroyed by such things as a Republican President to which I agree. Or three dimensional TV. I say two dimensional TV can do it Ray feels that if they hold back on the bomb that war may even do us some good. I don't think there are any benefits that you can't get from peace. If you believe war benefits us in ways that peace can't, Name them. And I don't mean doesn't, I mean can't. As for war's advanced Technology, technology isn't civilization. Letter; Joe Gibson... Joe calls Pavlat and Thornburgh nuts for saying a warfare could destroy civilization. Joe maintains that our Society will crumble, but not our civilization. I would say the reverse. Knowning how to wind an amature, bore piston valves, and rattle a telegraph key are items too useful to be forgotten. They may not be forgotten but what good will they be? To wind that amature you will need copper wire. If you have the wire you still need current. What will you grind piston valves with? What use is rattling a key if the lines are down and there is no-one at the other end? Ok, Joe, you may be right, suppose after 50 yrs there will be new industries, supplies, and communications. That is not civilization! Will those new industries produce movies such as "The Red Shoes"? Will the Harvard Press still operate? Will someone be publishing a Harpers Magazine? Who will most influence housing? Frank Lloyd Wright or Grim Necessity? The Saturday Review of Lit. lists the following as the things that civilization is made of; Books, Drama, Music, art and travel. Well, Joe, won't you concede that an atomic war and the destruction of the big cities damage them badly? As for near-savagry a half century ago, I don't know about the gun, but the architecture was louzy. subject; Flying Disks;;; Letter; Ray Nelson He favors a steering clear of the subject because of the lack of information. Stan Crouch believes commentator Henry Taylor who labels them ours. This is ridiculous. I will except one of the following 1. It is all imagination. 2. They are interplanetary. If they were US Military craft they would not pass our civil and private planes as has been reported. Anyone who says it is Venus or Whether Balloons is kidding himself. Karl King calls Calvin's Beck's article a hoax. This is undoubtedly correct. Subject; Garner vs Sneary; Pavlat makes this point in his letter. Garner did not railroad anything. Let me make the last; Garner doesn't need to ask your approval of anything. And that, Rick, is all there is to it. Discussion closed, I hope. Subject; The NFFF; Only new piece on the N3F was a retorical and pointless question from Charles Burbee. Stan Crouch asks, Why Discuss it further? Karl King demands that the N3F prove its self with records instead of talk. I gather he is tired of the whole thing. So am I. Let's close this one too. LETTERS IN GENERAL; Stan Crouch should write Remus a open letter so we all could get in on it. He say, "The more we think of war and fear, it is more likely we are to have it." In a way that is true. Perhaps we should discuss
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(16) DEAR DAWNERS, This time I'll try deviding the issue into subjects. Subject: Civilization and the Bomb Letter; Ray Nelson Ray questions Bob Pavlat's definition of civilization. That is a good point. If this discussion continues I think we should give our definitions in our letters. Ray thinks Pavlat's civilization is USA 1950. He then says it can be destroyed by such things as a Republican President to which I agree. Or three dimensional TV. I say two dimensional TV can do it Ray feels that if they hold back on the bomb that war may even do us some good. I don't think there are any benefits that you can't get from peace. If you believe war benefits us in ways that peace can't, Name them. And I don't mean doesn't, I mean can't. As for war's advanced Technology, technology isn't civilization. Letter; Joe Gibson... Joe calls Pavlat and Thornburgh nuts for saying a warfare could destroy civilization. Joe maintains that our Society will crumble, but not our civilization. I would say the reverse. Knowning how to wind an amature, bore piston valves, and rattle a telegraph key are items too useful to be forgotten. They may not be forgotten but what good will they be? To wind that amature you will need copper wire. If you have the wire you still need current. What will you grind piston valves with? What use is rattling a key if the lines are down and there is no-one at the other end? Ok, Joe, you may be right, suppose after 50 yrs there will be new industries, supplies, and communications. That is not civilization! Will those new industries produce movies such as "The Red Shoes"? Will the Harvard Press still operate? Will someone be publishing a Harpers Magazine? Who will most influence housing? Frank Lloyd Wright or Grim Necessity? The Saturday Review of Lit. lists the following as the things that civilization is made of; Books, Drama, Music, art and travel. Well, Joe, won't you concede that an atomic war and the destruction of the big cities damage them badly? As for near-savagry a half century ago, I don't know about the gun, but the architecture was louzy. subject; Flying Disks;;; Letter; Ray Nelson He favors a steering clear of the subject because of the lack of information. Stan Crouch believes commentator Henry Taylor who labels them ours. This is ridiculous. I will except one of the following 1. It is all imagination. 2. They are interplanetary. If they were US Military craft they would not pass our civil and private planes as has been reported. Anyone who says it is Venus or Whether Balloons is kidding himself. Karl King calls Calvin's Beck's article a hoax. This is undoubtedly correct. Subject; Garner vs Sneary; Pavlat makes this point in his letter. Garner did not railroad anything. Let me make the last; Garner doesn't need to ask your approval of anything. And that, Rick, is all there is to it. Discussion closed, I hope. Subject; The NFFF; Only new piece on the N3F was a retorical and pointless question from Charles Burbee. Stan Crouch asks, Why Discuss it further? Karl King demands that the N3F prove its self with records instead of talk. I gather he is tired of the whole thing. So am I. Let's close this one too. LETTERS IN GENERAL; Stan Crouch should write Remus a open letter so we all could get in on it. He say, "The more we think of war and fear, it is more likely we are to have it." In a way that is true. Perhaps we should discuss
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